This is one of the most interesting NDEs you will ever read. After evaluating Guenter Wagner's childhood NDE profiled here, I have found some very interesting aspects about it. His discussion of the "black world" is a very good description of the void experience which many experiencers have described.

In the void, or what the Bible refers to as "outer darkness," there exists all kinds of mischievous souls. These souls often refuse to enter the light for some reason. They are souls with heavy negative vibrations and are often thought to be "demons". But souls of higher vibrations (i.e. light beings) try to bring these unfortunate souls into the light which they ultimately succeed in doing.

Many near-death accounts involve this void and it is generally only a transitory space that people travel through (usually by means of the tunnel) to get to the light. Some people spend more time in the void than others, but the evidence suggests that souls remain there until they find within themselves the love that causes them to be attracted to the light and leave the void.

Guenter's NDE is like many others in that he experiences the Being of Light (whom he identifies as Jesus), the void, and a very interesting life review. He also experiences time travel, but Guenter's time travel experience is like none I have ever read. Although his NDE may seem unusual at times (because the void experience can be unusual), this is a good example of the subjective nature of NDEs. It is also a long near-death account but certainly well worth reading.

I do not know exactly how old I was when I had this experience, but everything happened in our new home, so I must have been 11 years old, at least.

On that day I left my flat on the first floor when, all of a sudden, I heard a voice behind me. I quickly turned around but there was nobody. I cannot recall the exact words, but the voice said, in effect, that the quality of my world that I knew of was nothing compared to the one that he would be able to show me. “Nonsense,” I said to myself and started to run down the stairs to the basement in a boisterous and cheerful way. There were only a few steps left when I jumped up high knocking my head against the ceiling.

The impact of this blow sent me down on my knees and I quickly passed out. I fell into a deep blackness. I remember going through a kind of black hose. At the end of it, I felt being drawn back by a mysterious force, but I resisted because I did not want to go back through that black hose again. I went forward and suddenly I found myself in a gray space.

I did not know where I was, and, looking around, I saw in some distance someone slowly coming towards me. Actually, I did not see this figure at all because there was nothing to look at. However, I sensed a gray figure being there. I definitely knew that there was someone. I said, "I have lost my way. Could you please show me the right way back?"

The next thing I knew was that I was lying on the basement floor. I heard this extremely uncomfortable ringing noise, which gradually became more and more intense. Then the noise stopped, and, all of a sudden, I realized that a white, gauze-like material was very slowly oozing out of my head.

It took on the shape of a very long stocking and floated at a slight angle right above me. I became very embarrassed, because I did not want to be seen by anyone with this material coming out of me. Meanwhile, more of this gauze-like material was collecting itself under the ceiling and I could not do anything to stop it. I did not feel any pain whatsoever in this process.

Suddenly it dawned on me that I was out of my body. It must have happened the moment this oozing stopped. I saw a body lying on the floor, which could only belong to me. I was shivering and I quickly wanted to return to my body and its warmth when I heard someone say:

[Webmaster note: I believe this is the voice of a mischievous soul in the void]

However, I did not pay any attention to the voice. Although I could not see any physical body but my own, this voice was quite near. Then I heard it again, this time it was begging me very earnestly:

I hesitated. After all, this voice was right. Why shouldn't I give it a try? On that the voice said quickly:

The voice was right again. I could think very lucidly indeed, and I was able to understand very quickly with a directness that did not leave a trace of doubt. Then I heard the voice again:

Eventually I began to consider the whole situation. It was really up to me whether I wanted to return to my body and live the life on Earth with all its limitations and with all its joy or to stay outside in this condition of clear thinking. The voice again urged me to hurry up and to tell him whether I had made up my mind.

I gave in. I decided to stay outside and I instantly realized that my body had to die, meaning total destruction by decay. I thought to myself, "How sad for my mother!"

As for me, I did not feel any regrets, because my body was now only a wrapper to me, a burden of which I freed myself the moment I had decided to stay outside.

Presently I realized that I was able to move freely about in a way I had never experienced before. I was floating right through the walls of our house (I saw my mother in front of the kitchen stove cooking a meal) and up into the sky. In the distance, I saw a great shining ball, which was the sun. I felt irresistibly attracted to it by its brightness and I wanted to go right into it. No sooner had I thought this when I hit something that catapulted me far out into blackness. I tried once more, but it all happened again. I quickly learned that there had to be an invisible barrier that I could only approach but not overcome.

I had another go and this time I stopped right in front of this barrier in order to watch the sun, which was now shining in a reddish glow. Its size was relatively small because I had to look at it from a distance, which was determined by this invisible barrier. Nevertheless, the reddish glow of the sun did not satisfy me at all.

As I was looking around, I saw in the distance a multitude of other lights, which shone much brighter than the Earth's sun. I wanted to be with those lights! Although they were far, far away, I could reach them in an instant. However, each individual light had its own effective barrier that knocked me off into the blackness again every time I tried to approach it.

Getting in contact with these barriers was very unpleasant, because every time I touched them, my whole being was violently shaken.

[Webmaster note: I believe this is either the voice of a helpful light being or a helpful soul in the void.]

I chose an individual light whose brightness was much greater than all the other lights around it and I approached it very carefully. I saw a huge ball burning incredibly bright. The voice told me that it was one of the many stars that I was able to see from the Earth.

I was watching this ball for quite a long time until I could not look at it any longer. Therefore, I withdrew into the blackness again. I began to consider my situation. I could not stay in that blackness forever. There must be a way out. I looked around and I saw another cluster of stars that was strangely twisted.

I did not know where up was, but tried all the same - with success, because I saw very far away, over the blackness, a shimmering line. I wanted to go there in spite of that incredibly long distance, but I only wanted to go to the edge of this line, because I did not know whether it had a barrier or not.

I covered the distance instantly. This time there was no barrier that would repel me. The light came from another world. (While our world is black with lights in it - this other world is bright). However, I could not enter this world. I was moving around in every direction trying to figure out a passageway to this world. I soon realized that there was only one possibility: Hurling myself down this black abyss that lay right in front of me. I hesitated. I did not have the courage to jump.

Then I jumped. I do not know what happened next, but I do remember very vividly that I suddenly found myself moving at a tremendous speed through a tunnel of blackness. I had entered this tunnel headfirst. My whole being was in a kind of a cylinder or pipe and I shot through this tunnel like a capsule in the tubes of a pneumatic post.

I was moving faster and faster, until I was ejected far into this new universe. The blackness was instantly substituted by a sort of dim brightness (if I may say so). I tumbled over myself several times very vehemently until I felt being slowed down by this new world. I remember thinking, "Why are they treating me so rough?"

I felt this new world closing in on while simultaneously the old world was retreating until I was completely taken up by this new world.

I turned around and I saw a piece of the black world, which I must have trailed behind me while being ejected, withdraw to the opening where it was finally sucked up. The moment the old world was shut out, I was immediately taken up by the new one, so much so, that I was thoroughly convinced that I could only further exist in this new world. I had no choice anyway. The black world was gone. I was now an inseparable part of this new world. I thought to myself, "This scoundrel of a voice! He has betrayed me by forcing me into this world. There is no way back! This is final! Hopefully, I will be able to breathe and not suffocate to death."

Therefore, I tried to breathe, but I soon found out that no breathing was necessary. I simply could exist. As long as I was in the black world, I had never thought about breathing.

As I said earlier, everything around me was dimly bright. Although it was bright, I could not see clearly. The impact of the finality of the condition I was in was overwhelming. Although I felt being part of this new world I did not know anything about it. I felt utterly alone, betrayed, very tiny and insignificant. No other soul far and wide. I started wailing about my situation. I did not know what to do. I felt very miserable.

All right, I was able to move freely wherever I wanted to go. However, where should I go? No one was there! No one? Nevertheless, there were voices very far away! In fact, I heard two voices.

Voices in this world were actually no voices at all. Something was thought and I immediately understood what they were talking about. What I am reporting now are impressions and not the meaning of actual words. These impressions were, however, so clear that I had no doubts whatsoever.

I continued complaining that I would not know anyone in this bright world and that I had been forced to come there. The voices drew nearer. However, I could not see anybody. I simply sensed their presence, which was very fine with me. I now knew that there were beings in that world with whom I was able to communicate. Beings, however, that were simultaneously strangers, but friendly ones.

The beings urged me to go back where I had come from. I thought this very ridiculous being now a part of this new world. Moreover, even if I really wanted to go back, which was impossible, how should I proceed? In addition, even if I did succeed in finding my way back, I would not have the slightest idea where my native world, Earth, lay. Then I sensed that they wanted to force me out of this world. I became very upset and I thought, "No one can force me to leave this world. I have a right to stay here, because I am a part of it."

The two beings must have understood what I was thinking, because I could not sense their voices any longer. Then, one of the beings guided me (I do not know how) to a place that I had not seen before. The other one must have gone away calling for assistance in attempting to find the right approach of how a situation like that should be handled.

This place turned out to be a meadow with many flowers in it. It was a wonderful meadow, but I knew that it was only an image of a meadow, somehow conjured up and suspended in this new world. The being asked me to play on the meadow, but I could not. I simply did not know how.

All of a sudden, I was aware of a tiny bright light far away in the "sky" but rapidly coming nearer and nearer. It was shaped like a ball and it was indescribably bright. I tried to shade my eyes, but I did not need to. Despite its incredible brightness and brilliance, it did not dazzle me a bit!

Presently, this light stopped at a distance right above me. It was a sun about the same size as the sun of our world, but it was indescribably brighter. I kept staring at this sun wondering how a light could possess such brilliance. (The brightness of the lights in the black world was brilliant, too, but of a different nature).

Suddenly I realized that it was scrutinizing me very closely. On that, it opened up, and a beam came pouring down on me.

I answered, "But I do not know anything else but the truth!"

Then something happened that I would never, never forget. Love, pure, utter love came pouring down on me along with incredible warmth. My whole soul or being was immersed in this love. He lifted me up and gave me a kiss on my mouth. This Being of Light loved me deeply, infinitely deeply, and more and more intensively. I was happy! I could have stayed in this beam of love forever. If my story had been a lie, the Being of Light would have annihilated me. I had a clear conscience anyway, so there was no reason to fear anything.

Gradually the loving became weaker and I felt that something was wrong with me - something that made it very difficult for the light to continue with his love. He was trying not to tell me why.

[Webmaster note: I believe this is a reference to the purification process that some souls go through. The phrase "smelly breath" may be a reference to "smelly thoughts" or negative thoughts which are incompatible with existence in the higher afterlife realms. Such thoughts have also been described in other NDEs as a form of "thought bacteria." Various NDEs demonstrate how such thought processes must be purified before entering these higher realms.]

I received the impression that I would have to take a bath similar to that I was used to on Earth, but by dipping the whole body. It was made plain to me that this process was going to be unpleasant, but I could stop it when it became too painful for me to bear.

Although I could not comprehend the reason, I was willing to do what the Being of Light wanted me to do. I was lifted up and put into a red light. I closed my eyes. I could not feel anything. I did not know for how long I had been in this state. After some time, however, I realized that I was being tossed about rather rigorously. It was like being in a washing machine. I cried, "I think that is enough!"

Immediately, I was lowered down and the love and the warmth were switched off, but I still remained in this beam (or sphere).

Suddenly the sun disappeared and I saw a moon. I was in a different world. Everything was black but the moon, which was right in front of me. It was much clearer and more refulgent than the moon in our world. There was not a trace of blackness in it. The moon was surrounded by a wreath of little, bright stars. I kept staring at this shiny moon when suddenly I felt a strange sensation entering through my left eye and spreading into the deepest recesses of my brain.

I was wondering about the fact that I could distinctly see the moon with my left eye that had always been weaker than my right one and I suddenly realized that right in front of me were all the answers to any questions we might have on Earth. I got very excited about this and I tried to locate the place about which I wanted to tell our scientists on Earth that they should come and see this extraordinary place.

I tried to pinpoint this place by looking at the left side of the moon and counting the little bright stars. However, in doing so I realized that they were not stars but in turn little moons.

Again, I was looking at the left side of the moon and the more I was looking the more little moons were coming up in a straight line, one little moon after the other. There was no hope of locating this place. Then I began to feel cold and I was shivering. I remembered the sun of our world, its warmth that sometimes may have been too hot but, overall, it was life-giving warmth. I desperately wanted to return to the bright, living sun. Only then did I realize that I was looking at the moon with my left eye while my right eye was closed. I wanted to open my right eye to see the sun again but I was not able to.

I wanted to leave the moon, which I was no longer interested in. I wanted to go back to the bright, living sun. I tried very hard but in vain, I even felt an extremely unpleasant pain in my head. All of a sudden, however, the moon with its black surroundings disappeared and I saw this incredible bright sun again.

Suddenly the sun started to move backwards changing its colors to a deep dark red. It kept moving back into the sky until it was a very tiny red light - like a point. Then it began to move very quickly. At one time I saw the bright sun on the left side and then the red sun on the right side, dancing, as it were, from left to right and from right to left.

I felt that the sun wanted to communicate with me. I thought to myself that up here the suns cannot speak but just move about and that this was their way of talking. Then it stood still and I saw the bright sun in front of the tiny red sun. Nevertheless, I could not make out what this was all about. I regarded the whole spectacle more as a funny and entertaining act than anything else. However, it was not funny at all. I suddenly felt that I should be transferred back into the world with the shiny moon and I remembered the unpleasant pain and the cold that I had encountered there.

Suddenly I realized that the bright sun in front of me was the shiny moon and that the red sun had the moon safely under control making in fact one sun. This was the message that the sun had wanted to get across.

Then the Being of Light wanted to talk to me on a man-to-man basis. He placed me on top of a high mountain where I had to sit on a large piece of rock.

I asked him why he had wanted to destroy me, and he told me that there existed also evil but very powerful and cunning beings who were his enemies with whom he had been constantly fighting. He also told me that I had to warn my world against them, and I automatically nodded in agreement. He said that his enemies had wanted to play a trick on him by using me as a kind of trap, but he had to defend this world and the black one. His world, however, would be much easier for him to defend, because the evil beings had no power in it and he had no power in the black world.

I realized having been positioned in such a way that I was able to overlook a huge stretch of clouds that were marvelously illuminated from below. Suddenly a flash of lightning whose intense light was much greater than that of the bright world, forced me to look up. Then a big bang followed, but I was totally unperturbed. On the horizon, I saw smoke bulging out of the clouds and gradually taking on the shape of a mushroom. It grew larger and larger and brighter and brighter. I was in complete awe. Suddenly everything was gone.

I turned around, and I heard screams and I saw fire and smoke almost surrounding me.

Then everything was over. Again, the bright light wanted to talk about his enemies. However, I was still very impressed with what had just happened. So I thought to myself, "Oh no, not again!"

However, the light made me aware of the fact that this war had been going on for a very long time, and the evil beings had become more and more powerful, and if this continued he would not see any means of preventing them from taking over everything. He said that if the enemy had really succeeded in coming into his world, the war would have been lost. He would have been powerful enough, no doubt, to fight them off, but the war would have been lost in the long run. He was really afraid of loosing this war. Then it was intimated to me that he needed help. I wanted to help him, and I replied, "Yes, but how?"

He answered that the only way I could help him was by going back and telling my world what had happened to me. I was completely shocked to hear him say so, because I did not want to go back. I was so depressed that I almost started to cry.

I looked up and answered cheerfully, "Yes, I would love to."

To a certain extent I was disappointed and repeated, "A teacher?"

I imagined, quite vividly, a teacher who was standing in front of his pupils giving lessons.

I was then thinking of a university professor lecturing to his students.

I was surprised and almost could not believe it. Besides, I considered this quite difficult. I imagined a map of my world, and I saw myself in future life going from place to place, from university to university teaching the university teachers of my world.

I replied, "To my house?"

I imagined our house on Earth, our living room, and I saw myself sitting on a chair opposite a stern-looking, respectable professor, trying to teach him. However, I failed. I was too embarrassed and too shy. I said, "I do not think I am clever enough to do this. Moreover, I have a speech impediment."

He then paused, and I looked up and saw myself lying on a hospital bed that was being pushed down a very long corridor by a member of the medical staff. I asked, slightly alarmed, "Am I being ill?"

I was not worried any more.

I was deeply impressed, but also worried. So I asked, "Will I feel pain in this process?"

I gradually became accustomed to the idea of becoming a teacher. So I asked, "Will they also learn their lessons?"

He made a suggestive face, meaning that he was not sure about that. I asked him another question, "Will I also teach them when I am awake?"

And he showed me a room in which I saw myself sitting on a chair talking to someone. I actually did not see myself neither did I see the person to whom I was speaking. Nevertheless, I definitely knew that it was I, because I was now in that room looking about. I saw a low table, books on the walls, two windows, and drapes that were moving in front of a window by a slight draught of wind.

I said, "Of course."

I shook my head in disbelief. But he said, "You cannot even tell me now how you came here."

I could not belief him and tried to remember what had happened on Earth. However, to my great surprise, I was not able to do so.

Suddenly the light became quite enthusiastic and said that I was to be the first teacher of this new type, and there would be a lot more to come. I was disappointed to hear him say so. Nevertheless, the light wanted to show what it meant being the first.

I said, "40 millions may be?"

I said, "Middle Ages?"

I said,  "The birth of Christ?"

I was thinking hard, "Adam and Eve?"

I was thinking for some time. Eventually I blurted out, "Stone Age?"

He then told me that in that age there were not many people living on Earth. However, they were free to walk wherever they wanted to go, and that there were no borders that would keep them from roaming about. I said, "How beautiful."

I was imagining a map of Europe, which I had seen in my Atlas, with all its borders. I did not have much time to think about all this, because, all of a sudden, I saw human beings back on Earth. I was looking down on a group of people, men and women, who were dressed in furs, sitting around a campfire. I could see a woman with her baby on her back, and a man who was standing in front of the group obviously making a speech. Another man stood a little apart.

All of a sudden, I heard a loud cry of disappointment, and the guttural voice of the man in front of the group of people. I did not understand what he was saying.

I certainly wanted to do so, because I was eager to hear what this man was talking about. Therefore, I started to concentrate.

I was amazed to hear him say so, because I considered my first attempt quite satisfactory. Nevertheless, he wanted me to do better.

I closed my eyes and began concentrating extremely hard. However, the light was not in the least satisfied.

However, suddenly the tone of his voice became very gentle and he came close to me and said tenderly:

I was determined to do my best. I closed my eyes again and tried as hard as I could to listen to what I was supposed to hear. All of a sudden, I was able to understand what the man was saying.

He was addressing the group of people in a very impressive manner. I was completely impressed and I could understand very well why he was forced to attack his enemies.

As for me, I could not get along with what he was saying. After all, one had to fight one's enemies. I could not understand that it should be more honorable to fight animals than people. However, I could not go on contemplating such things, because my eyes were forced to the ground that gradually began to move. At first slowly, but then faster and faster until I was no longer able to distinguish any details.

The movement suddenly came to a halt. I saw grassland in front of me and in the distance there was the edge of a forest with very high trees. Suddenly, I was placed in the woods. Although I could not see anything, I knew that I was in this forest, that is, right in the middle of a village.

 
I could feel fear and anxiety. They would have liked to run away as they had done so many times before. However, this time they had made up their minds and intended to stick to their firm resolve. However, they were all full of fear.

I was able to feel distinctly her anxiety. Her fear grew stronger and stronger.

Her fear began to take hold of me. At first I thought, “Why is she so afraid? She must be hysterical. How on Earth can you be so afraid?!"

Nevertheless, I was being immersed, deeper and deeper, into her feelings of sheer fear. I could not stand it any longer! I thought to myself, "I wish she stopped worrying now."

It was extremely unpleasant indeed.

He was stressing the words - dead persons - and - again. I felt great apprehension on the part of the light concerning the large number of dead people, so I asked, "Again?" because I was of the opinion that I had watched the first human beings on Earth.

I was amazed at this and I could feel how the light was suffering from the great number of dead people. I am not quite sure about what happened next, but all of a sudden, I heard a thunderous, angry voice accusing mankind, including myself, of destroying his garden on Earth.

I was completely perplexed.

I answered, "But you have just told me how to do it!"

So I asked him that, being a little and ignorant child, I would not know how to inform my world.

However, I did not want to leave him forever. So I asked him if I could come back after having told my world and stay with him permanently.

Although I still did not know my way back, this time I had no doubts whatsoever. If the Being of Light wanted me to go back and live, I simply had to. It did not matter any longer how it could be done. This light had absolute power. Nevertheless, I could still not understand why. I repeatedly pleaded, "Why? Why can I not come back? Why? Why? Why? Why am I not allowed staying on in your very love and warmth?"

The light answered that no one could stay permanently with him. However, I still was not satisfied. If it was not possible to stay with him, I surely could come back and stay in this bright world in which those two beings were already living!

I replied, "But why have these two beings been allowed to stay?"

The light answered that even these two beings could not stay on permanently. They were only in this world in order to learn. In addition, he began to emphasize the importance of love and learning. He wanted me to be his apprentice. He the master, I the apprentice. However, I still could not see what love and learning should have to do with my wish to stay on in this bright world.

I had, it was true, to admit that I did not love the light, but I certainly was willing to learn everything that he wanted me to learn. On that, the light started, to my great dismay, to position himself further back in the sky, and I could not feel his presence any longer, because the beam had been switched off. I suddenly felt cold and very miserable.

However, one of the other beings asked me to watch a certain place very carefully. Indeed, they urgently asked me not to move but to fix my eyes on to that place. I did what I had been told to and presently I saw this panoramic review. Very vividly and distinctly. I was stupefied! The images of this film moved very rapidly, showing me my past life on Earth. I could instantly understand everything that was being shown to me.

(I cannot remember any of the details, because this was only an experiment to test my ability whether I was able to really understand what I was watching.)

The beings asked me several times if I could clearly comprehend what was being shown. I answered impatiently, "Of course, of course!"

I was slightly annoyed about their questions.

(In communicating with the beings, I always used my mouth as I had done on Earth. This was not the case when I was talking with the Being of Light)

Thereupon the Being of Light started to show me my past life again, but this time the stress lay on the quality of my soul during my existence on Earth. When I was watching my past life the first time, I was just very happy to be able to watch my former world and myself. I regarded this actually more as an entertainment than anything else. I did not feel miserable any longer.

However, the second time, former events of my life on Earth were shown with the emphasis on my reaction to certain situations in terms of love or nastiness or even hatred. This was made quite clear to me, and I knew what to look during the second review. Everything started from the beginning. I could not see how I came into existence on Earth, because I only had to mind my behavior with regard to love or hatred.

At first I was very satisfied that nothing was happening to which I could have reacted with either love or hatred. Then, the film speeded up, but there still was not anything for which I could have been made responsible. I was stupid enough to say triumphantly: "See, there is nothing!"

On that, I could see a scene in which my twin sister and I were quarrelling (I could not make out the reason for the argument), but I instantly knew how ugly I had behaved. I said to the light, "But you must understand! This is bad, all right, but this is the way human beings behave on Earth! You cannot really blame me for that!"

The great light did not blame me for anything that I had done on Earth. Then I was shown some more nasty scenes on Earth in which I had behaved badly. However, I still had excuses. Then, I think the great light became slightly impatient at my stupidity, no doubt. Suddenly, the film was accelerated to such an extent that I was unable to distinguish any images at all. Then it stopped abruptly, and I was confronted with a situation in which I behaved extremely badly.

My behavior was tremendously enhanced, so that every bad aspect of my character stood out clearly in front of me. It was horrifying! I could hardly believe this character of mine! I was finally convinced! Such a soul could never stay on in this bright world! I had no right, no claim whatsoever! I was completely shaken and dejected. I wanted to go back. Yes, there was really no other way possible.

Then the Being of Light was gone. One of the other beings brought me back to Earth. I do not know how. I only heard, while being tucked back into my body, a snapping sound like the sound that can be heard when you put the lid on top of a mess tin securing it with the catch. When I opened my eyes, I remember starting to cry, "I do not want to die, I do not want to die, and I do not want to die!"

Then I picked myself up and in approaching the staircase, I wondered if there would ever be a way back, whereupon I heard a voice shout at me:

And another voice said:

[Webmaster note: These voices are obviously from a mischievous soul in the void.]

Then I climbed up the stairs down which I had been jumping so happily. I could only feel a minor swelling on the top of my head, which was not particularly painful.

[Guenter Wagner's NDE account ends here.]

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2. More Information About Guenter Wagner

I am German, male, unmarried, born 1942. Immediately after my experience, I was very troubled and I couldn't understand what had happened to me. I simply did not know what to do next. I couldn't talk to anybody about it. I wanted to obey the Being of Light by writing a scientific report, but I was unable to do so. I simply did not know how to proceed. Then suddenly a voice told me that I had to learn another language. Period.

At night, I felt very miserable. This went on for about 2 weeks, when, one night, the Being of Light returned and said that I had to forget everything. Later in my life, however, I would encounter great misery.

Relieved, I turned myself on the other side and fell asleep. When I woke up the following morning, I couldn't recall a single word!! For the following 25 years, I had lived my life the way I wanted it to live. I became an alcoholic and resigned from church. I believed neither in God nor in the other world. However, I did develop a drive for learning English.

The big change, though, came in 1980, shortly before Christmas Eve. On TV, there was a report on NDEs, and they were talking about a light. Suddenly it struck me that I, too, had once seen such a light. Thank God, I could not recall everything at once. Surely, it would have killed me! I personally call this my Saul/Paul experience, because it had a similar effect on me. Saul had been blind for 3 days and became an apostle later on and I became a fighter against the devil in and about me.

The positive effect of all this was, however, that I instantly got rid of my alcohol problem. The negative effects were three suicide attempts in 1981. (The third one almost being successful). As an after-effect of alcoholism, I developed a rupture of my stomach in 1986 whereby I missed the grave only by an inch. They took out my entire stomach plus other organs. By the way, no cancer. The Being of Light was right, after all.

In 1980/81 I couldn't write down my experience in German, and even today there is no German translation, because I have not yet had the inner O.K. from the Being of Light who is our Lord Jesus Christ. Besides, it is more difficult for me to translate my story into German, because the recollection of the experience was entirely in English, and I have trouble finding the correct German terms (I have never been good at translating anyway.)

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3. An Interview with Guenter Wagner

The following is an interview by someone who is interested in near-death experiences.

Question:  You were about 11 years at the time. Age and worldview have an influence on the NDE experienced by individuals. Do you think the Being of Light treated you as a child?

Wagner:  No, I don't. He specifically wanted to talk to me on a man-to-man basis. At the end of my report he said and I quote. After some time, the light said, "Ask me that you do not know how to inform your world." I answered, "But you have just told me how to do it!" However, he insisted by saying, "Now you are again a little and ignorant child that does not know how to do it!" So I asked him that, being a little and ignorant child, I would not know how to inform my world.

Question:  Such a judgmental light, all the emphasis on fighting, being told to kill your mother. How do you feel about this?

Wagner:  Strangely enough, there was not only a voice at the end of the experience, but right at the beginning as well. There are not only good guys in the spiritual world. The Bible calls them demons, devil, evil beings, serpent, dragon etc. and on Earth we are constantly surrounded by them – sometimes people get obsessed by them. I have been fighting those evil spirits since 1980 and this will continue until I die that is until I leave my body forever. For instance, the evil voices told me more than once that hey were going to kill me. They hate Jesus Christ and every person who chooses Him. I can testify to this. Right after my NDE/OBE, however, I had no idea whatsoever as to whom that voice was or where it came from.

Question:  How do I feel about this?

Wagner:  Well, in spite of all that has happened, I would not like to miss one single event of my live. Since Christmas 1980, I have been able to establish a personal relationship with the Being of Light by way of internal fights, visions and auditions and I am now in a position to go public with my experience.

Question:  Did you like your mother?

Wagner:  Yes, I did. I did not kill her. She died peacefully at the age of 92 in 1994.

Question:  There are both hellish and heavenly aspects to it - both the good and the bad. How do you explain the loving parts and the not-so-loving parts, the way you were treated, what you were told? I am also curious to know about afterward.

Wagner:  Since 1980 I have undergone many temptations and have thus learned more than during my entire stay in the other world. You could also say that through temptations I have drawn the Lord God Jesus Christ into existence on Earth. Please don't get me wrong here. The loving parts come exclusively from our Lord Jesus Christ, who is God. The term God includes infinity, eternity, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience etc. However, no one knows what those words actually mean. That is why the most ancient Jews did not name God. But this is not so with the name Jesus Christ. He is God in form, a visible God, a real person in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells (according to Paul). Jesus Christ is plainly man and all other human beings are made in His image. (He being the original, we are the copies, so to speak). His father is Divine Love itself and He is Divine Wisdom itself and His will is the Holy Ghost. These three make one God in Jesus Christ. In 1996, He made me aware of what it really means when you say you have prayed to God, namely nothing. A very unpleasant experience indeed, actually one of the worst experiences I have ever had in this respect. (Horrible, terrifying, harrowing). The not-so-loving parts stem from malicious, evil spirits. I do not know whether you have ever experienced their malice and their slanderous behavior. Their hatred is indescribable. They were once physical human beings. However, they did and still do love evil and without love no one can exist. Our Lord God Jesus Christ has the power to destroy them, no doubt, but He will not do so, because of their free will and their love. Love is what constitutes man (either way).

The Being of Light (our Lord Jesus Christ) is my master and I am His apprentice, as He told me so in my NDE/OBE. Actually, it is not me who fights these evil beings; it is He who does so. He told me so in His “lecture” on the importance of love and learning. I said in my report, and I quote, "In addition, he began to emphasize the importance of love and learning." In this sentence alone is hidden more than words can tell and so it is with the entire account. In January 1987, for example, He taught me, "I am nothing. I can do nothing. I have nothing. I am dead. I am what I am through the Lord Jesus Christ. I can do what I can do through the Lord Jesus Christ. I have what I have through the Lord Jesus Christ. I am alive."

In April last year He came to me in person (although I did not see him) and set my whole heart and chest on fire. However, this is another story. And so on and so on.

Question:  What was it like for you after the accident?

Wagner:  Please refer to the above.

Question:  You were only 11 years old. Was your body different in any way? Were your abilities and perceptions different in any way? How did you feel inside? How was school for you afterwards? Did you feel any different in your family?

Wagner:  I had forgotten my NDE and I led a normal life. No special feelings, occurrences etc. whatsoever.

Question:  With your twin sister?

Wagner:  She knows nothing about it. No one in my family knows about my experience; let alone my colleagues.

Question:  You must have been caught up in the war years and what happened to Germany and with the Nazis.

Wagner:  No, I have not. I was born in 1942, the war ended in 1945. I had a happy childhood. We didn't have much to eat, though, but we never starved. My hometown was not subject to enemy attacks and remained intact.

Question:  Did your experience at the age of 11 make any difference in what you saw, how you felt, about what was going on around you?

Wagner:  No, it did not. I simply didn't understand what had happened to me and I kept thinking about it.

Question:  Do you suppose that your experience presaged (prepared you for) the war?

Wagner:  No, I do not. I was a baby at that time.

Question:  Do you suppose the Being of Light was so mean and spoke so much of fighting because that is what your world was filled with at that time?

Wagner:  No, I do not. Besides, our world is still filled with fighting. (The Being of Light is never mean, ever.)

Question:  Did your experience prepare you for the war and the after-effects of the war, how it would affect you as a youngster, and what you would have to go through?

Wagner:  No, it did not. I forgot everything.

Question:  I do believe you had a near-death experience, not just an out-of-body experience.

Wagner:  So do I.

Question:  I have found that with the majority of child experiencers of near-death states, it takes about 20 to 30 years, even 40 years, before they are able to understand what happened to them and integrate their experience.

Wagner:  That is most certainly true.

Question:  Many turn to alcohol within about 5 to 8 years of their experience.

Wagner:  You are right on, indeed. I turned to alcohol when I was about 20 years old. By the way, I had three OBEs altogether; the first one during birth, the second one when I was about four, the third one at the age of 11 or 12. In 1980/81, while recollecting my experience, I recalled those two other experiences, as well, which made things worse at the time.

Question:  I suspect there is more to your story.

Wagner:  You are certainly right here.